Curse

Krill · Sep 26, 2008, 01:03 PM // 13:03

To my knowledge Sirlin never took a second look at GW after much of the initial bad interface was cleaned up, but yes as Necrid said he's more interested in the 1v1 strategy of gaming. To that end, with your quote about brick walls in mind, warriors always have the disadvantage in RA where first strike with hexes or energy based spikes often wins short, pointless matches.

DarkNecrid · Sep 26, 2008, 01:46 PM // 13:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by arienrhode

To my knowledge Sirlin never took a second look at GW after much of the initial bad interface was cleaned up, but yes as Necrid said he's more interested in the 1v1 strategy of gaming. To that end, with your quote about brick walls in mind, warriors always have the disadvantage in RA where first strike with hexes or energy based spikes often wins short, pointless matches.

Actually he did! A bunch of GW players told him too, he did, and he doesn't like it.

Why?

It's not 1v1 ergo yomi means very little and that utterly frustrates him to no end. You have to rely on other people, and in fighting games where all of his tactics and such lie in, you don't have to. None of his stuff honestly applies in Guild Wars unless you twist it a lot.

Ex Death · Sep 26, 2008, 02:17 PM // 14:17

It's actually never a good idea to attack the enemy monk as a warrior even if he doesn't have defensive stances. This is because 99% of RA monks are too retarded to use guardian on targets other than themselves. If you train a monk, he will perma guardian himself and your dps will be much lower than if you attack another target who will just be WoH spammed.

In my experience it's usually best to attack offensive casters such as fire eles because they never kite. It is also always best to try to avoid attacking empathy mesmers or curses necros or other melee hate faggots because since they are horrible they will c-space you and shit out all of their anti-melee hexes on you. Due to their lack of field vision they will tend to ignore you for a large portion of the match unless you are right next to them. If you are on another target, they actually have to "find" you in order to hex you, which the vast majority are not very good at doing.

As has been discussed earlier, linebacking as a warrior wins games. As a general note, any hybrid offensive/defensive character will win games assuming you have one monk and two other damage dealers. So if you are playing warrior and have a monk on your team and the rest are damage dealers it would probably be best to lineback all game (assuming you have knockdowns).

Magikarp · Sep 26, 2008, 02:30 PM // 14:30

lol i loved this, i can't wait to see more. cool post Moriz :P

bungusmaximus · Sep 26, 2008, 02:45 PM // 14:45

Boo, who says you only have to lineback monks anyways? I tend to lineback everything that gets harassed so my teammates can do their jobs w/o being interrupted.

Mouse at Large · Sep 26, 2008, 02:54 PM // 14:54

Lets be honest, the vast majority of RA is rock/paper/scissors.

What helps is making your rock a bit papery or your scissors a bit rocky........that and a bit of experience

Nice guide btw

scruffy · Sep 26, 2008, 04:53 PM // 16:53

I disagree, there is a lot of 'yami' in GW. Did sirlin even play GVG? Split tactics, stopping spikes, making spikes, interupts, etc. You can break it down to compartments your warrior vrs their monk, your monk vrs their warrior, your interupts vrs their casters, their casters vrs your interupts etc

If you think about it, making builds to counter your opponent in tournaments has a lot of this as well: trying to think what they will bring to take advantage of your weaknesses

The Turtles
The Attackers
The Obsessed
The Snakes
The One True Style
The Invincible and The Beast

these characterize not only individual players but also guilds as a unit

what guild plays ultra defensively
what guild plays ultra offensively
what guild is obsessed with the(honourable) style of play

etc...

divide and conquer, attacking by fire, the sheathed sword etc all of this stuff is completely relevant to guild wars tactics and gameplay

Byron · Sep 26, 2008, 05:42 PM // 17:42

I don't get the above post at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Cytherea X

it's understandable that no1 here can fathom my brutality.

You are absolutely right.

More on the mark: if you like to play warrior in RA, either take a hex removal or learn to be a ruthless opportunist. Accept that you are going to get camped by hexes and hate.

*EDIT: Disregard that first sentence. I failed to realize that it was Feanor, best warrior in the game, posting.

Winterclaw · Sep 26, 2008, 06:04 PM // 18:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yobs

Linebacking as in American Football or whatever they call that silly game over there. You put a bunch of huge muscly types with no necks in front of the quaterback to protect the most important asset on your team. I lived in the States for 3 years and still have few clues about that game, loved baseball tho

. Often it is the monk as he/she keeps the rest of you alive to do damage, but not always. Maybe your mesmer, necro or ele are more important to neuter their offense or their monk so the party can stay alive and can get kills. Remember the important point Lineback (protect) whatever is the most important member on your team to keep alive and functioning.

Oh and be prepared to get flack from other warriors/rangers and most typically sins who think monk stomping is the be all and end all of RA. Mind you your monk will love you and will get all the praise from the rest of your team....take it all in good humor as monks (sometimes fairly) cop more flak than anyone in RA so deserve all the praise they get if the team wins a Glad pt or 2

.

I hope the next article will describe the reverse, taking out/neutralising the most important player on the opposition side...often NOT the monk

. All warriors should realise a good dom. mesmer will likely destroy a decent monk if left to cast freely if the team also boasts some decent damage. A monk forced to cast through shame, diversion, backfire and Visions is not going to heal for long.

Yobs

Ok, you just confused me more about what linebacking is. In your description, you are talking about offensive linemen who protect QBs. In Football, the linebackers are usually the field weapons and mostly focus on shutting down the running game, some short passes, and getting to the QB.

Thus I was under the assumtion that linebacking was about taking out the other team's offensive weapons.

Greedy Gus · Sep 26, 2008, 07:54 PM // 19:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

Ok, you just confused me more about what linebacking is. In your description, you are talking about offensive linemen who protect QBs. In Football, the linebackers are usually the field weapons and mostly focus on shutting down the running game, some short passes, and getting to the QB.

Thus I was under the assumtion that linebacking was about taking out the other team's offensive weapons.

Yeah, that's right. Linebackers are the defensive beasts who shut down the opposing offense through slamming them to the ground. The general term in GW now refers to shutting down the enemy offense through typically powerful offensive characters of your own.

Nice OP moriz. I find it hard to believe but even when I play with presumably respected players in TA, sometimes they'll start yelling in vent for me to go attack the monk because "he'll drop", without realizing that the pressure they're seeing is coming from me beating on all the enemies who *don't* have self-defense, making a third of the monk's skillbar useless while reducing the pressure our team is taking.

Quote:

Originally Posted by darknecrid

too bad people misuse their shit horribly.

Yeah like you're doing. SunTzu specified that his writings could easily pertain to almost any different avenue, such as business, sports, etc. as long as you're willing to treat it with the same mindset as war (not playing for fun, but necessity, where total victory is your true goal). And sirlin's ideas very much pertain to a variety of different games where you can play to win, and simply not liking GW (based on gimp excuses because he wanted it to be more like WoW) doesn't change the relevance of generic game strategies he wrote about.

kvndoom · Sep 26, 2008, 07:59 PM // 19:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

Ok, you just confused me more about what linebacking is. In your description, you are talking about offensive linemen who protect QBs. In Football, the linebackers are usually the field weapons and mostly focus on shutting down the running game, some short passes, and getting to the QB.

Thus I was under the assumtion that linebacking was about taking out the other team's offensive weapons.

It's just a term, but yes the principle is closer to what I bolded. In RA, everyone usually runs off to monk-stomp, leaving your own casters to fend for themselves. Of course, that means your team will also fall victim to monk-stomping as well. In order to gain an advantage, you should seek an opportunity to slow down or nullify their offensive threat.

Wounding Strike A/D is an example of an excellent linebacking build for RA. It puts serious hurt on monk-stompers, especially if there's more than one, since the scythe hits multiple targets. Crippling Sweep + Wounding + Malicious Strike takes a huge chunk out of a red bar, plus covers Crippled 3 conditions deep and thus leaves your target snared for easy follow up attacks. If you manage to get more than one enemy bunched up and land all 3 attacks, the odds are good that at least one of them will not survive. So the fool melee player(s) who rush into your backline get punished very quickly and very severely. Of course, we all know how powerful a critical scythe build is, so it is one that works wonders offensively as well as defensively.

Threat assessment is another important consideration. Once the enemy is in radar range, a quick TAB through will give you a good guess for whom you need to go after first. Well over 75% of the time you can correctly guess most of a player's bar by seeing their primary and secondary profession. Before the skirmish even begins, you should have a plan in your head of how you expect to win this match. Always factor in the assumption that the other physicals on your team will monk-stomp. Unless you're on a streak and they've proven that they are more advanced than that, you have to take it for granted, and designate yourself to be the one who goes after an off-monk kill. Is your healer a Rit? You know those spirits take 3 seconds to put down. Is there a bow ranger on the other team? Guess what's going to happen to your Rit if you can't get that Ranger out of his rhythm. If you see a Thumper or Packhunter, consider what skills they likely have. KD/Daze or unblockable Enraged Lunge are two big threats. Sometimes it's worth it to kill the pet (especially against Otyugh/Enraged), because it disables all the Ranger's skills and resets all their adrenaline. And the enemy Monk isn't generally going to prioritize healing a pet. Even though your team will call you an idiot and noob for attacking the pet, that can buy your healer (and thus your team) the time you need to turn the battle. It's an intangible and can't be measured, because no one sees the damage you prevented, only the damage you've done, which doesn't seem like anything on the surface. And of course, don't let the Mesmer go untouched and shut down your monk.

If the enemy melee is overextending to go after your backline, you can swing the match in your favor very quickly. Just keep in mind that most are C-space addicts whom you can typically save for last. Off-monk kills and shutdown are going to win matches in RA, which is what you should be looking for primarily. If you see a weak monk bar (anything not /W or /A, generally), then stomping might not be a bad idea, because you will probably be able to score a fast kill.

DarkNecrid · Sep 26, 2008, 08:05 PM // 20:05

Quote:

(based on gimp excuses because he wanted it to be more like WoW)

He hates WoW more than he does Guild Wars, lol. A lot more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by scruffy

I disagree, there is a lot of 'yami' in GW. Did sirlin even play GVG? Split tactics, stopping spikes, making spikes, interupts, etc. You can break it down to compartments your warrior vrs their monk, your monk vrs their warrior, your interupts vrs their casters, their casters vrs your interupts etc

First it's yomi, and second, the problem is is your reading the 7 other people on your team's minds (while communicating to them), and 8 other people on the enemy team's minds, plus the "minds" of AI NPCs. This really isn't yomi in the strictest sense. If you strip his text down like Gus is doing here, and you take it down to its most basic freaking point of playing to win, then yeah it applies to Guild Wars. But anyone who plays fighting games competitively and can see what he's talking about because of that, should be able to easily discern why the actual points (hint: it's not just PLAYING TO WIN) don't relate to Guild Wars at all.

moriz when are you going to do the next part? i really want to read it. i hope these parts won't take too long to get up!

Seraphim of Chaos · Sep 26, 2008, 08:22 PM // 20:22

Some cheesy quotes and a "luck" win for an extremely specific scenario.

Am I missing something or is this more of a "i dun gud in RA" thread rather than a RA warrior guide.

moriz · Sep 26, 2008, 08:47 PM // 20:47

another part is already up, but i admit it isn't much good. i'm too distracted while writing it. and yes, i was watching some pro korean starcraft when i was writing, hence all the starcraft analogies.

as for GW having "yomi" characteristics... i'd say it does. it might not be nearly as well-defined as the ones you see in RTS and fighting games, but what's really cool about GW's yomi characteristics is that it applies on two levels: individual players, and the team as a whole.

let's look at it at a simplified individual level first:

a warrior rushes at a moving monk to attack, hoping to land a bull's strike (in sirlin's examples, this will be move M). the monk, after falling for the trick a few times, decides on a counter: cast a spell (on himself or a teammate, doesn't matter yet) as soon as the warrior comes into range to make him whiff on the bull's strike (C1). after getting stoned by this trick a few times, the warrior switches it up to a different approach: disrupting chop instead of bull's strike to catch that spell (C2). after getting a few spells disabled by this trick, the monk switches to another counter: not move or cast anything for a second to draw the dchop, and then keep running (C3). after the warrior whiffs on his dchop a few times, the warrior can try a different trick (C4), or he can just go back to bull's strike once the monk starts moving again (M).

these little things fill the undercurrent of any pvp encounter, often below the notice because everyone watching will be looking at the big picture. being able to consistently win these individual "yomi" encounters creates a small effect, but it still nonetheless felt. this is why you see the top warriors of the game seemingly able to bull's strike/dchop at will, and somehow get something important every time.

scruffy · Sep 27, 2008, 08:40 AM // 08:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

He hates WoW more than he does Guild Wars, lol. A lot more.

First it's yomi, and second, the problem is is your reading the 7 other people on your team's minds (while communicating to them), and 8 other people on the enemy team's minds, plus the "minds" of AI NPCs. This really isn't yomi in the strictest sense. If you strip his text down like Gus is doing here, and you take it down to its most basic freaking point of playing to win, then yeah it applies to Guild Wars. But anyone who plays fighting games competitively and can see what he's talking about because of that, should be able to easily discern why the actual points (hint: it's not just PLAYING TO WIN) don't relate to Guild Wars at all.

you dont read anyone but the opponents mind, you build a connection with your teammates over time and through communication to the point where you know how they will react to certain situations

the npc's are a nonfactor because they are there to be manipulated and both teams know about their existence prior to entering a match

obviously the 'yomi' isn't as intense in GW as in a drawn out 1v1 battle, but it comes in short confrontations repeatedly that are similar but there is also the aspect of the team like what moriz was talking about that imo makes it a lot more interesting, because essentially you have to use your intuition against 8 people not just 1.

example: is the mesmer or the ranger going to interupt me if I cast aegis or will the warrior dchop me

yes at its most basic point were talking about 'playing to win' but the tactics used in order to win are the same in every gaming genre whether its counter strike, street fighter, starcraft or even guild wars you can find strategies that are common in all of them.

distractions: splitting up your army/enemies attention to force a missmatch
fighting by fire:using the terrain to your advantage

in counterstrike in order to achieve the objective splitting up your forces is often the best way to go so that they cant focus fire at one position, the terrain is also estremely useful because you can use it to avoid being shot among other strategies.

in fighting games you can distract the opponent by constantly changing the way you approach similar situations to keep them guessing(hopefully wrong) what you will do next, you can use the terrain to your advantage i.e standing out of their attack range, and using attacks that have long range capabilities to force them to make a move that could be disadvantageous to them

in starcraft you can split up your army if you have superior micro than your opponent and crush him because he cannot concentrate on the different battles as well as you can and his armies fall apart because hes constantly going back and forth less efficiently than you are, you can use the terrain to accomplish certain goals as well, using air units, pinning someones army in a bad spot etc etc etc

in guild wars you split up your team to force them to fight in smaller battles that their build was not meant for and you can use the terrain to your advantage i.e catapult, flag, health shrine, sludge(isle of worms),quicksand(nomads) height advantage etc

this is longer than it should have been but im just wondering why you think the same strategies arent universal in 1v1 games and team games? they are just applied differently

moriz · Sep 29, 2008, 02:12 PM // 14:12

added a bit more. there's just one last part left, hopefully will be done by then end of the week.

jawapodracer · Oct 05, 2008, 07:38 PM // 19:38

Inspired by this guide, I made myself a PvP warrior for the first time, spent about 6-7k of my saved up faction, and made myself an earthshaker/dev hammer warrior. It's probably some of the most fun I had in RA, compared to the WoH Monk/Burnarrow ranger I have.

Can't wait to read the rest of the updates.

Master Ketsu · Oct 05, 2008, 09:29 PM // 21:29

I would split this guide into TA/RA Warrior guide to make it more sensible. Alot of what you have said also applies to playing a warrior in TA balanced teams, and if you were to go into more detail about the main differences ( Like how to counter the overpowered shit. ) the guide would be better.

moriz · Oct 06, 2008, 05:02 PM // 17:02

guide is now tentatively complete. i hope to be able to add pictures later, but the important parts are there now.

Ec]-[oMaN · Oct 06, 2008, 06:33 PM // 18:33

Good guide.
In all fairness though more often than not a warrior in RA without a monk on his team is a dead war before he even charges up rush.

PS. When you decide to take a self heal, that is when you get paired up with a monk, drop the self heal for more dmg and guess the outcome.